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[28]Rich Harris
[29]Rich Harris
Posted on May 15, 2020
● ● ● ● ●
In defense of the modern web
[30]#javascript [31]#react [32]#svelte [33]#webdev
I expect I'll annoy everyone with this post: the anti-JavaScript crusaders,
justly aghast at how much of the stuff we slather onto modern websites; the
people arguing the web is a broken platform for interactive applications anyway
and we should start over; React users; the old guard with their artisanal JS
and hand authored HTML; and [34]Tom MacWright, someone I've admired from afar
since I first became aware of his work on Mapbox many years ago. But I guess
that's the price of having opinions.
Tom recently posted [35]Second-guessing the modern web, and it took the front
end world by storm. You should read it, or at the very least the [36]
CliffsNotes. There's a lot of stuff I agree with to varying degrees:
There is a sweet spot of React: in moderately interactive interfaces ...
But there’s a lot on either side of that sweet spot.
It's absolutely the case that running React in the client for a largely static
site is overkill. It's also true that you have to avoid React if your app is
very heavily interactive — it's widely understood that if you want 60fps
animation, you will likely have to bypass the React update cycle and do things
in a more imperative fashion (indeed, this is what libraries like [37]
react-spring do). But while all this is true of React, it's much less true of
component frameworks in general.
User sessions are surprisingly long: someone might have your website open
in a tab for weeks at a time. I’ve seen it happen. So if they open the
‘about page’, keep the tab open for a week, and then request the ‘home
page’, then the home page that they request is dictated by the index bundle
that they downloaded last week. This is a deeply weird and under-discussed
situation.
It's an excellent point that isn't really being addressed, though (as Tom
acknowledges) it's really just exacerbating a problem that was always there. I
think there are solutions to it — we can iterate on the 'index bundle'
approach, we could include the site version in a cookie and use that to show
actionable feedback if there's a mismatch — but we do need to spend time on it.
It’s your startup’s homepage, and it has a “Sign up” button, but until the
JavaScript loads, that button doesn’t do anything. So you need to
compensate.
This is indeed very annoying, though it's easy enough to do this sort of thing
— we just need to care enough:
<button class="sign-up" disabled={!is_browser}>
{is_browser ? 'Sign up' : 'Loading'}
</button>
But I'm not sure what this has to do with React-style frameworks — this issue
exists whatever form your front end takes, unless you make it work without JS
(which you should!).
Your formerly-lightweight application server is now doing quite a bit of
labor, running React & making API requests in order to do this
pre-rendering.
Again, this is true but more React-specific than anything. React's approach to
server-side rendering — constructing a component tree, then serialising it —
involves overhead that isn't shared by frameworks that, for example, compile
your components ([38]hi!) to functions that just concatenate strings for SSR,
which is faster by a dramatic amount. And those API requests were going to have
to get made anyway, so it makes sense to do them as early as possible,
especially if your app server and API server are close to each other (or even
the same thing).
The dream of APIs is that you have generic, flexible endpoints upon which
you can build any web application. That idea breaks down pretty fast.
Amen. [39]Just go and read the whole 'APIs' section several times.
━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━
Minor quibbles aside, Tom identifies some real problems with the state of the
art in web development. But I think the article reaches a dangerous conclusion.
Let's start by dissecting this statement:
I can, for example, guarantee that this blog is faster than any Gatsby blog
(and much love to the Gatsby team) because there is nothing that a React
static site can do that will make it faster than a non-React static site.
With all due respect to those involved, I don't think Gatsby is a particularly
relevant benchmark. The gatsby new my-site starter app executes 266kB of
minified JavaScript for a completely static page in production mode; for [40]
gatsbyjs.org it's 808kB. Honestly, these are not impressive numbers.
[41]The Lighthouse performance score for gatsbyjs.org
The [42]Lighthouse score for Gatsby's homepage, obtained via [43]
webpagetest.org/easy.
Leaving that aside, I disagree with the premise. When I tap on a link on Tom's
JS-free website, the browser first waits to confirm that it was a tap and not a
brush/swipe, then makes a request, and then we have to wait for the response.
With a framework-authored site with client-side routing, we can start to do
more interesting things. We can make informed guesses based on analytics about
which things the user is likely to interact with and preload the logic and data
for them. We can kick off requests as soon as the user first touches (or
hovers) the link instead of waiting for confirmation of a tap — worst case
scenario, we've loaded some stuff that will be useful later if they do tap on
it. We can provide better visual feedback that loading is taking place and a
transition is about to occur. And we don't need to load the entire contents of
the page — often, we can make do with a small bit of JSON because we already
have the JavaScript for the page. This stuff gets fiendishly difficult to do by
hand.
Beyond that, vanilla static sites are not an ambitious enough goal. Take
transitions for example. Web developers are currently trapped in a mindset of
discrete pages with jarring transitions — click a link, see the entire page get
replaced whether through client-side routing or a page reload — while native
app developers are thinking on another level:
unknown tweet media content Play butt
Ryan Florence profile image
Ryan Florence
[44]@ryanflorence
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This is what I've had in mind for the web with React Router. We say these
kinds of animations are "good for phones but not desktop".
My iPad pro is as big as my laptop and these apps are shopping/content
(most of the web).
These transitions are such a great UX.
16:06 PM - 22 Oct 2019
[45] Twitter reply action [46] Twitter retweet action 20 [47] Twitter like
action 197
It will take more than technological advancement to get the web there; it will
take a cultural shift as well. But we certainly can't get there if we abandon
our current trajectory. Which is exactly what Tom seems to be suggesting.
━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━━
I'm not aware of any other platform where you're expected to write the logic
for your initial render using a different set of technologies than the logic
for subsequent interactions. The very idea sounds daft. But on the web, with
its unique history, that was the norm for many years — we'd generate some HTML
with PHP or Rails or whatever, and then 'sprinkle some jQuery' on it.
With the advent of Node, that changed. The fact that we can do server-side
rendering and communicate with databases and what-have-you using a language
native to the web is a wonderful development.
There are problems with this model. Tom identifies some of them. Another major
issue he doesn't discuss is that the server-rendered SPA model typically
'hydrates' the entire initial page in a way that requires you to duplicate a
ton of data — once in the HTML, once in the JSON blob that's passed to the
client version of the app to produce the exact same result — and can block the
main thread during the period the user is starting to interact with the app.
But we can fix those problems. [48]Next is doing amazing innovation around (for
example) mixing static and dynamic pages within a single app, so you get the
benefits of the purely static model without ending up finding yourself
constrained by it. [49]Marko does intelligent component-level hydration,
something I expect other frameworks to adopt. [50]Sapper, the companion
framework to [51]Svelte, has a stated goal of eventually not sending any JS
other than the (tiny) router itself for pages that don't require it.
The future I want — the future I see — is one with tooling that's accessible to
the greatest number of people (including designers), that can intelligently
move work between server and client as appropriate, that lets us build
experiences that compete with native on UX (yes, even for blogs!), and where
upgrading part of a site to 'interactive' or from 'static' to 'dynamic' doesn't
involve communication across disparate teams using different technologies. We
can only get there by committing to the paradigm Tom critiques — the
JavaScript-ish component framework server-rendered SPA. (Better names
welcomed.)
The modern web has flaws, and we should talk about them. But let's not give up
on it.
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[63] twigman08 profile image
[64] Chad Smith
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[66] [71bd929d-4] Chad Smith
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Honestly my biggest issue with the current state of the web is the current
state of how complex the tools or build process is.
I miss the days of some html, add a bit of JavaScript to the page and you were
done. You didn't worry about going and making sure you had a complete build or
bundling process to get everything good. You spent your time worrying about how
to develop your app. Which in my opinion was better for the users. There was
less bugs. We actually spent more time making sure the application worked rock
solid.
Nowadays to get anything cool to be be ready for production you have spend
needless time on the configuration. Did you do this? Did you configure it to do
that? Oh you can't do that unless you eject it that build tool and use this
build tool. That's where the current state of the web is failing.
Sure we have taken steps forward in some areas. But we have to be honest with
ourselves. We took major steps back in other areas of the web. Sometimes I
wonder if we took too many steps back.
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[74] gotofritz profile image
[75] fritz
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I don't get it. Nobody's stopping you from firing up an HTML doc in Notepad and
FTPing the result to a web server, if that's all you need. But other people
have more complex needs (in the "good ole days" there were no smart phones, to
mention just one thing) and therefore we need more complex tools. Why do you
want to force me to party like it's 1999?
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[86] Chad Smith
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My issue isn't with applications are too complex really. I develop complex
applications too at work.
My issue is with all the moving parts with a modern web application. Fighting
if I can use certain language features. Oh I can't, now I have to bother with
setting up and making sure I can use Babel or something to do it properly, or
even loading in polyfills (cool just added another dependency the browser has
to load before the application can be used).
That still hasn't covered bundling everything. What's the correct way bundle
this? Well crap I now have to go and correctly configure WebPack. Unless you're
one of the VERY FEW experts on that ,that will take time to figure out to get
right. Ok so I think it bundles right, well now how should I lazy load this
code for the user? What should be lazy loaded? What should i use to set it up?
That's just the beginning. I could go on and on about the other complex moving
parts with a modern web application.
I am not asking anyone to make applications like it is 1999. All I'm asking for
is a more modern and simpler process that is a STANDARD.
Maybe it is because I come from compiled language background. Where I have to
worry about that one single binary. I only have to worry if the compiler
supports the language version I'm using. Where I can just pass in a single flag
to the compiler for the optimization level I want.
Yes I will be the first to say that in some areas of modern web application
development we have taken steps forward. I just wonder if we have taken steps
back in some areas to take those steps forward.
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[95] gotofritz profile image
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All I'm asking for is a more modern and simpler process that is a STANDARD
...
Maybe it is because I come from compiled language background ...
Well I am sorry, but web development is a complete different kettle of fish. We
download all the parts that make up an application asynchronously, on a wide
variety of devices, with different specs and rendering capabilities - all
things which the app, once downloaded, need to adapt to. We have progressive
rendering and respond to all sort of sensors. All while ensuring boot up time
for the app is in the microseconds range and security for both you who download
the code and the server.
Your expectations are simply unrealistic, sorry.
Also, we always had polyfills, even "back in the day". Except that back then
everyone had to bake their own. In fact, we had browser wars and appalling
browser (IE5 for the Mac, anyone??!?) and it was a real pain in the neck.
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[107] Adrianus
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Bingo, the complexity today is a must, at least because of the growing
smartphone usage. The simple reason why "Native Apps didn't kill the web even
with all their superior capabilities" (Ryan) is simply UX. As internet usage
often starts with searching for something having in mind, that all-app-thinking
interrupts exactly this flow, leaving at least 30% of all traffic untouched.
For what? For 5-minutes-crafts skyrocketing their YouTube traffic? Although not
everything needs server side complexity plus having API's and webhooks easily
integrated using browser capabilities not existing in the god old days, the
architecture underneath is not the real issue.
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[118] Otto Rask
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You fight complexity with ... more complexity?
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[128] fritz
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You are getting it wrong. The aim is not "to fight complexity". The aim is to
fulfil complex needs. I am saying for that you often need more complex tools.
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[138] Otto Rask
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What percentage of modern web is a "complex needs" target that requires a
complex solution such as React or Vue or perhaps something custom written in
WASM? 50% 25%? 5% 1%?
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All of it. Unless you have actual data that proves otherwise...
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[158] Jacob Ybarra
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dank web dev
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uh what? the web is about content and media. not a software environment.
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[169] rachelle palmer
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I decided I would try to build an app in every programming language. That
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re: sessions --> I keep tabs open for months at a time, not sure about anyone
else
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[180] Mark Saward
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Some interesting thoughts, in the original article and your response. Certainly
good for generating discussion :)
It will take more than technological advancement to get the web there; it
will take a cultural shift as well. But we certainly can't get there if we
abandon our current trajectory.
The problem as I see it is that the web -- in terms of client-side executed
markup and code (HTML/CSS/JavaScript) just wasn't designed with these kinds of
interactions in mind (the interactions that Ryan Florence highlighted). It's
the wrong foundation for it.
I don't think that "getting there" should be through bending original web
technologies, but rather with something else entirely -- perhaps WebAssembly,
or a return to actual native applications much like we've come to depend on on
our tablets and phones. We already can do nice animations like that iPad demo
with native desktop applications. There's many advantages to websites over
native desktop apps, with the standout one being that they don't require
someone to install an application on their machine. Maybe WebAssembly can give
us a compromise -- desktop apps built with technology designed for that job,
but available in a way that doesn't require any local installation. Then we can
use tools that were purpose built for those kinds of tasks, instead of trying
to wrangle the foundations of the web to fit something they were never built
for.
When I think back to how we used to build websites back in the day, and how we
build sites with technologies in tools like React now, I'm honestly not sure
that we've gained anything of great enough value relative to the simplicity
we've lost. In short, I'd be happy to abandon our current trajectory and put
our hope in alternative solutions for those situations where what we really
need is a native application. Leave the web for what it's good at.
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[191] Ryan Carniato
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That's interesting. I mean I was there too, and the extent of what I can build
with a modern library so extends what I could reasonably do before. And the
reason for that is JavaScript. When I was building sites in the late 90s so
many things weren't possible and you had no choice but to pay these costs for
interactivity. Sure I view sourced a few cool tricks.. image maps etc, but with
my table based layouts and a little JavaScript I could do very little. Part of
it was the available DOM api's. My lack of understanding of the language but I
think we look at the past with rose colored glasses.
It's more interesting to me that native platforms have borrowed concepts from
libraries like React in terms of declarative views etc. I'm not saying React
invented this stuff but that the trend would suggest the contrary. These trends
could be mistakes but popularity has as much stake in the course of events as
innate value.
I think this comes down to really this hope of a Silver Bullet. It doesn't
exist. Instead we have momentum of a ubiquitous platform that just is
constantly aiming to improve. It's not only that the other approaches have
already lost, we're getting to a point where any new approach will have to
atleast acknowledge the current web. At this point a competitor isn't going to
change the tide, but something from within. It's more likely that the web
addresses those fundamental shortcomings than people moving to a different
platform. Native Apps didn't kill the web even with all their superior
capabilities. And on a similar note it is going to take monumental change for
this to fundamentally change. Even with React's reach, it wasn't alone in a
movement that started years before. This is bigger than any particular library
or framework.
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[202] Mark Saward
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There is absolutely no doubt that you can do incredible things with modern web,
and the power unlocked by having a programming language in the browser has been
amazing. However, when I think about a great deal of the websites I interact
with, and ones I build, there would not be much lost if they significantly
simplified the tech stack they work with to be closer to the core technologies
of the web (including a splash of JavaScript).
What I'm trying to convey is that I think our move to make everything a web app
has been a mistake, for multiple reasons. You are absolutely right to say that
this tide is going to be very hard (perhaps impossible) to turn, and I
absolutely agree there is no silver bullet (I've looked), but that doesn't mean
we haven't taken a worse path and shouldn't lament for what could have been.
The advantages of web apps are compelling for developers -- they are easy to
distribute, update, control, make cross platform, when compared to native apps.
It is not hard to understand why and how we have ended up where we are. I just
wish we were somewhere else -- but it would take a lot of work to create that
'silver bullet'.
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[212] Adrianus
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That whole app environment was basically triggered by one need, and one need
only: bandwidth. No idea if anyone remembers when they launched this WAP
protocol, making the internet available on smartphones, what failed for two
reasons. The providers made it easy to access on their own portals aka AOL
strategy at beginning of the web, leaving the rest of the market untouched,
secondly the site performance was ridiculous. Apple stepped in, put a bunch of
intelligence into the app, dramatically reducing the load time, did not convert
so much traffic on their own apps and let developers do what they do best. By
2008 more than 50% of the whole mobile internet traffic was iPhone traffic.
Bandwidth is no longer the breaking point.
Google has for years campaigned the untapped goldmine local traffic, experience
flows that often start at the search for getting something done in time,
monetising on micro moments as more than half of all mobile searches have a
local intend. I posted an example how something to get done interferes
cross-applicational from the perspective of a user. With an app-only scheme
this is getting impossible. Sure it is understandable that nobody pays so much
attention. Most search engines run a change and heavily invested in AI to
optimise traffic at the client's frontend. But even this is not enough, when it
comes to intends other than something very individualised. I wouldn't care so
much about the user, but more about what the user wants to achieve.
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[222] oenonono profile image
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React definitely didn't invent HTML.
Declarative views, indeed.
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// , “It is not so important to be serious as it is to be serious about the
important things. The monkey wears an expression of seriousness... but the
monkey is serious because he itches."(No/No)
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The problem as I see it is that the web -- in terms of client-side executed
markup and code (HTML/CSS/JavaScript) just wasn't designed with these kinds
of interactions in mind (the interactions that Ryan Florence highlighted).
It's the wrong foundation for it.
Yes. Please. Can we please just accept that it's all broken.
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Not at all.
CSS has media queries and all sort of crazy and wonderful stuff. HTML has tags
for responsive design. JS has (in the browser) access to apis like mutation
observer and orientation and speech recognition. It's TOTALLY built for that.
Enough of the "get off my lawn" negativity
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// , “It is not so important to be serious as it is to be serious about the
important things. The monkey wears an expression of seriousness... but the
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shakes his cane at you
mutters incomprehensibly
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Looking at the criticism made about some recent redesigns (reddit, facebook,
etc) it seems that the main complaint (from a user point of view, at least) is
how slow it feels compared to the previous version or to a "simple" site with
HTML, CSS, and a little bit of javascript.
I haven't checked it recently, but when the new reddit UI was released,
scrolling was terrible on my $2500k laptop. It felt slow. Everything was
sluggish. It also downloaded a few MB of javascript on pages that essentially
had a thumbnail, a title, and some comments (not everyone lives in a big city
or is connected to a super fast internet connection!). When the page was
loaded, I was seeing more scrolling lag because they lazyload some content. I
mean, it's hard to like this "modern web".
As a user, I don't care about how things work behind the scenes. I don't mind
some javascript on a page, after all we don't need a page reload just to
preview a comment or "like" something. You can even use javascript for
everything, I don't mind. But it needs to be fast and it needs to work well...
and right now some "modern" sites provide a worse experience than before.
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[276] iamschulz profile image
[277] Daniel Schulz
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Tom identified the main weakness of modern web development correctly: It's
based on javascript. He points out the sluggishness and accessibility problems
that stem from that attitude, and hes absolutely right to do so. Static pages
(as a paradigm, not as Gatsby in particular) are maybe not the cure for that,
but they are definitely a step into the right direction.
I just rewrote my website with hugo and specifically without a major JS
framework, but settled for a vanilla approach rooted in a progressive
enhancement mindset. I didn't even run into the problems that are inherent to
React, Vue and Angular.
Sure, you can serve HTML with SSR, but you still have to wait for the bundle in
order to have a functional site, plus a truckload of ssr-related complexity.
And that is utter rubbish. JS should never be a requirement, it needs to be put
in its place as the cherry on top of the cake.
Progressive enhancement needs not only to be a major approach to webdevelopment
again, it needs to be out default mode of operation.
This is also the core of Toms article. And I agree with him.
That said, nothing stops you from adding features like nice transitions. But
please be sure not to break standard web features while doing so.
Transitions need to add to hyperlinks, not replace them.
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[288] Rich Harris
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I feel like you didn't quite read the article closely enough ;) Of course
progressive enhancement needs to be the default — that's why there's so much
focus on SSR in all major meta-frameworks.
Sure, you can serve HTML with SSR, but you still have to wait for the
bundle in order to have a functional site
This isn't true! Take [296]sapper.svelte.dev, which is a site built with Sapper
and baked out as static pages. It works just fine without JavaScript, you just
don't get client-side routing. It's a small site, but the same thing applies to
larger ones like Gatsby's homepage — no JS? No problem.
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[300] Daniel Schulz
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It certainly is true for standard implementations of React-, Vue- and Angular-
based sites. There may be a focus on SSR, but it still isn't close enough to
deserve to be the default. It needs to come without extra complexity. Only then
we're ready to take the step to fully embrace those solution.
And this is my point. You need to take one step after the other. It was a
mistake to build everything with javascript first and then try to look if it
still works without afterwards. The damage to the web has been done.
I didn't take a look at Sapper/Svelte. Though, in comparison, those are still a
nieche product.
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[310] Martin Malinda
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The damage to the web has been done.
JS certainly caused a lot of damage on many websites. But now - finally - we're
getting to the point of having frameworks which can, by default, offer
client-side routing with SSR and hydration without shipping large bundles of
JS. Up to this point the frontend devs should have been more conservative and
they should have thought twice whether they should really go all-in into an
SPA. But now's the time when it's really starting to be a viable option. Next,
Nuxt, Marko and Sapper are finally technologies highly worth pursuing, even for
content-based websites.
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[321] Ben Halpern
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The future I want — the future I see — is one with tooling that's
accessible to the greatest number of people (including designers), that can
intelligently move work between server and client as appropriate, that lets
us build experiences that compete with native on UX (yes, even for blogs!),
and where upgrading part of a site to 'interactive' or from 'static' to
'dynamic' doesn't involve communication across disparate teams using
different technologies. We can only get there by committing to the paradigm
Tom critiques — the JavaScript-ish component framework server-rendered SPA.
(Better names welcomed.)
I like this takeaway because it's heavy on acknowledging the process behind the
technology which is often disparate and confusing. Even the most
well-intentioned and organized dev team is going to get out of wack if
succeeding with the tooling is experts only. We need to be able to achieve
great performance, UX and accessibility even under conditions where designers
do some work, devs pop in some hotfixes here and there, old devs leave with
some of the knowledge, priorities change, etc.
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// , “It is not so important to be serious as it is to be serious about the
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I like this aspect of Mr. Harris' article, too. It's the first principle of the
Tao of HashiCorp: [341]Workflows, not Technologies.
The HashiCorp approach is to focus on the end goal and workflow, rather
than the underlying technologies. Software and hardware will evolve and
improve, and it is our goal to make adoption of new tooling simple, while
still providing the most streamlined user experience possible. Product
design starts with an envisioned workflow to achieve a set goal. We then
identify existing tools that simplify the workflow. If a sufficient tool
does not exist, we step in to build it. This leads to a fundamentally
technology-agnostic view — we will use the best technology available to
solve the problem. As technologies evolve and better tooling emerges, the
ideal workflow is just updated to leverage those technologies. Technologies
change, end goals stay the same.
And it's why Sacrificial Architecture appeases the dark ones.
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[345] Phil Ashby
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Good response, opinions are always worth having, as long as you are prepared to
discuss/defend/change them! I had a few thoughts on this topic last year in
response to your good self and web components that I think is worth referring
back to: [353]dev.to/phlash909/comment/cghl
In essence, the DOM and page model of HTML is a constraint around the outside
of applications that might be better inverted: I'd like to see browsers that
support HTML/DOM content if required, but do not constrain devs to always go
though it. Let's stop thinking of them as HTML rendering engines, and start
thinking of pre-installed runtimes with excellent web-based application
management!
We'll want to retain the benefits of dynamic software running on the client
(native UX, easy architecture changes, no user-install step, etc.), while
leveraging the effort that goes into making that a portable & safe thing to do
(common APIs, sandboxes, browsers as the standard runtime for client-side
applications). We are nearly there with PWAs perhaps? WASM then expands the
available languages for the runtime, allowing common client/server languages
and development processes to ease developer adoption. As/when a document needs
rendering, then HTML/DOM/CSS is there to perform it's proper function, however
many apps many be better off with a UX library (eg: SDL) or widget set (eg:
wxWidgets) atop the runtime bindings.
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// , “It is not so important to be serious as it is to be serious about the
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start thinking of pre-installed runtimes with excellent web-based
application management!
If you were to remove the "web-based" part, it'd almost describe the beginning
of OSes back in the day.
Which is perhaps what they are: The UI part of a vast "operating system" by
which we access the "applications" of the internet.
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I believe at the point you fundamentally push to render things other than
markup, you start making a different application. And that is perfectly
reasonable. I’m frankly surprised how well HTTP has held up to so many use
cases. I long ago expected to see far more protocols for more kinds of apps,
but HTTP seems to have solved so many problems well enough that it now hosts
other protocols.
There are probably more protocols that could be written and hosted on other
ports. Those would likely address many of these issues in a far better way. I
just wonder when the industry will pivot back to building protocols and leave
HTTP well enough alone.
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I think we're past that as most recent innovations in the web space are either
formats or evolutions of HTTP. Why reinvent the wheel if the wheel works well?
What do you think?
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HTTP/3 with QUIC seems like a great improvement, but it is changing HTTP. I
don’t see why HTTP needs changing for most things. Why not update SMTP or FTP,
as well? QUIC solves specific problems, and it might be better for those who
need QUIC for it to have features better suited to their needs.
In some ways, this also feels like the mash of several formats into HTML5 to
avoid name spacing. While we focus on and champion components within our own
apps, we continue to avoid and break components in the infrastructure.
Therefore, I think we may see new protocols emerge as the weight of these
complexities begin to cause problems. That could still be some way off.
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I'm not sure it is changing HTTP, it's HTTP over UDP. The protocol is basically
the same as HTTP/1 and HTTP/2.
QUIC solves specific problems, and it might be better for those who need
QUIC for it to have features better suited to their needs.
QUIC solves a specific problem HTTP has because it sits on top of TCP though,
basically pipelining
In some ways, this also feels like the mash of several formats into HTML5
to avoid name spacing. While we focus on and champion components within our
own apps, we continue to avoid and break components in the infrastructure.
I'm not sure I follow the analogy with HTML5, sorry :( IIRC HTML5 was created
to stop having to revise HTML as a a single unit and let things evolve at their
own pace. Same with CSS 3 I guess. I don't think it's the same thing here: HTTP
/3 is the result of the entire world using HTTP and needing to improve
performance.
Could they have created a new protocol? Sure, but why break compatibility with
millions of browsers, proxies, machines, software application and so on that
understand and function through HTTP? I think the decision to rewrite the
transport layer to be a smart one.
This doesn't mean that other protocols can't emerge, but it's okay not to throw
away those that work already
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[410] Greg Fletcher
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Great article!
Doesn't a lot of this disagreement stem from --> "keep the web as it is, coz
it's fine" vs "let's make it better by making mistakes along the way coz that's
how software development works"?
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// , “It is not so important to be serious as it is to be serious about the
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What about making it better by [429]sacrificing it?
We can [430]learn this lesson from Biology, that the best way to avoid
excessive optimization is the ultimate flexibility: Keeping the option on the
table to throw out the code, or well abstracted parts of it, and rewrite that
code or product from scratch.
It's a little known "dark" pattern of Software Design, from the shadows of
Agile, called "Sacrificial Architecture."
[431]exponential growth isnt kind to architectural decisions
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[435] Rich Harris
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Is the Web for applications?
I feel like this question sort of answers itself! Have you heard of Amazon?
Gmail? Facebook?
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[446] Ben Halpern
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My perpective: The web is for applications. The web is also for rich documents
where reading and simple linking can take priority.
And there is an uncanny valley when you the latter is the sensible choice, but
the former is the approach taken.
And many, the web is whatever Google tells them it is. Is AMP the web?
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It strikes me that the web never was and never will be anything like any
other platform for building applications. Whether or not someone wants to
turn it into that is their prerogative and any success they have probably
will help others build better things. But it ultimately depends on what you
want to build and why, and emulating a native application might not always
be the best option.
this :-)
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[469] fritz
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We need to have a similar approach in client side frameworks.
No we don't... if the The One True Omniscient God Framework approach that Rails
developers are constantly pining for was really the best one, then Rails would
be ruling. It isn't; it peaked in 2012 or thereabouts, knocked off its perch by
Node, among other technologies. It's a single point of failure and it cannot
adapt quickly enough to the bewilderingly fast changing environment in which we
operate.
Alternatively, you can pick one of the two frameworks that follow the model you
advocate: Ember (actually inspired by Rails) or Angular (more of a C# flavour),
both of which strive to be a nanny that remove as much as possible the need to
(god forbid!) make your own decisions or (the horror!) having to learn new
tools
If I could have the framework of my dreams ... It would allow me to focus
on HTML with a sprinkle of JavaScript.
You may want to consider [477]stimulusjs.org/, which comes from the Rails
universe (it was created by no other than David Heinemeier Hansson, the Rails
Superstar) and does exactly what you want
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[480] Florian Reuschel
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Can confirm that the Stimulus framework works great for that exact use case.
But if you're used to the more common frameworks, you might quickly miss the
declarative "give me data, I give you DOM" approach they provide.
I haven't tried it myself yet, but [488]Alpine.js gained some steam lately and
might be a good middle ground between Stimulus and the "top dogs".
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[492] Matt Welke
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writing an Express API requires "old javascript" unless you want to go
through the hassle of setting Babel up
Not sure what you mean here. You can use very recent JS features in Node. We
have async/await, async iteration, ES module imports, and more now. I've never
felt the need to set up Babel in an Express project.
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[503] Matt Perry
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it's widely understood that if you want 60fps animation, you will likely
have to bypass the React update cycle and do things in a more imperative
fashion (indeed, this is what libraries like react-spring do)
Probably aside from the article, which I largely agree with, but I think this
is an odd point to try and make. This is true of any component library that has
overhead above imperative JS. But there's nothing stopping you from using CSS
in React, which is all Svelte does anyway.
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[514] Rich Harris
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Wrong, sorry :)
This isn't a CSS demo: [522]twitter.com/Rich_Harris/status/120...
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[526] Daniel Lo Nigro
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We can provide better visual feedback that loading is taking place
I'm not so sure about that... IMO, so many single-page apps get this wrong. The
native browser loading indicator is still a lot better than many SPAs, and
unfortunately it's something that can't be triggered from JS (apart from ugly
hacks like infinitely-loading iframes)
With the advent of Node, that changed. The fact that we can do server-side
rendering and communicate with databases and what-have-you using a language
native to the web is a wonderful development.
Server-side JS was a thing looooong before Node. I remember using Microsoft's
version of JavaScript ("JScript") server-side via Classic ASP in the early
2000s. The issue back then was that JavaScript just wasn't quite that popular
yet. ES5 wasn't around yet (it was all ES3), and there was a lack of good
third-party libraries. But still, it was absolutely in use long before Node
even existed.
What Node did do was cross-platform support, introduce a module system
(CommonJS) as standard, and introduced the concept of easily obtaining
third-party packages via "npm", taking ideas from similar systems like Perl's
CPAN.
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[537] Mike Rispoli
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So one thing I wondered after reading Tom's article and now yours is how you
feel about modern UI being so tied to node or javascript run times on the
backend specifically. For instance if you were to be running something in Go
and Phoenix you could dynamically render HTML on the back end and serve it up
quite a bit faster that the current SSR environments based in Next or Nuxt or
Sapper? So essentially somewhat the way Stimulus JS works where you can send
over static HTML, rendered anywhere, by any type of server and the frontend
could just hydrate that and build components from it.
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[548] Rich Harris
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This is the 'PHP with jQuery sprinkles' approach I mention in the article,
except with shinier things than PHP and jQuery. I'm not a fan, personally.
Phoenix LiveView is an interesting take on the problem, but I suspect you hit a
limit as to how ambitious your UI can be when deltas have to come across web
sockets at a consistent 60fps.
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[559] Mike Rispoli
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So do you think it’s impossible for a framework to effectively hydrate static
HTML not rendered by that frameworks specified renderToString method?
I really don’t know what these functions do under the hood to allow rehydration
so I’m just curious if it would be possible and achieve a good frame rate.
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[570] Jaime González García
Jaime González García
[572] [09d69d89-7] Jaime González García
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Senior Software Engineer at Google working on Google Meet 👨‍💻 Helping
developers be more awesome 🔥 author, speaker & nerd 🧙🏼‍♂️ into JavaScript,
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Beautifully written and very inspiring 😀👏👏👏
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[595] [92d6b6d1-4] Rich Harris
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[292] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2i2
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[299] https://dev.to/iamschulz
[300] https://dev.to/iamschulz
[302] https://dev.to/iamschulz
[304] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2id
[306] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2id
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[403] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-12df6
[405] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-12df6
[408] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia/comments/new/12df6
[409] https://dev.to/gregfletcher
[410] https://dev.to/gregfletcher
[412] https://dev.to/gregfletcher
[414] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2j2
[416] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2j2
[419] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia/comments/new/p2j2
[420] https://dev.to/v6
[421] https://dev.to/v6
[423] https://dev.to/v6
[425] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p34d
[427] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p34d
[429] https://martinfowler.com/bliki/SacrificialArchitecture.html
[430] https://youtu.be/oKg1hTOQXoY?t=1754
[431] https://res.cloudinary.com/practicaldev/image/fetch/s--KIKmJfBA--/c_limit%2Cf_auto%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_66%2Cw_880/https://dev-to-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/i/5ehz4jt3d7skefmuwg6d.gif
[433] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia/comments/new/p34d
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[441] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2n0
[444] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia/comments/new/p2n0
[445] https://dev.to/ben
[446] https://dev.to/ben
[448] https://dev.to/ben
[450] mailto:ben@forem.com
[451] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2nd
[453] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2nd
[456] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia/comments/new/p2nd
[457] https://dev.to/rhymes
[458] https://dev.to/rhymes
[460] https://dev.to/rhymes
[462] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p6cm
[464] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p6cm
[467] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia/comments/new/p6cm
[468] https://dev.to/gotofritz
[469] https://dev.to/gotofritz
[471] https://dev.to/gotofritz
[473] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-paom
[475] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-paom
[477] https://stimulusjs.org/
[479] https://dev.to/loilo
[480] https://dev.to/loilo
[482] https://dev.to/loilo
[484] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-pb3c
[486] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-pb3c
[488] https://github.com/alpinejs/alpine
[490] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia/comments/new/pb3c
[491] https://dev.to/mattwelke
[492] https://dev.to/mattwelke
[494] https://dev.to/mattwelke
[496] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-pg9g
[498] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-pg9g
[501] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia/comments/new/pg9g
[502] https://dev.to/mattgperry
[503] https://dev.to/mattgperry
[505] https://dev.to/mattgperry
[507] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2i0
[509] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2i0
[512] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia/comments/new/p2i0
[513] https://dev.to/richharris
[514] https://dev.to/richharris
[516] https://dev.to/richharris
[518] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2je
[520] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2je
[522] https://twitter.com/Rich_Harris/status/1200807516529147904
[524] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia/comments/new/p2je
[525] https://dev.to/daniel15
[526] https://dev.to/daniel15
[528] https://dev.to/daniel15
[530] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2n6
[532] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2n6
[535] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia/comments/new/p2n6
[536] https://dev.to/mrispoli24
[537] https://dev.to/mrispoli24
[539] https://dev.to/mrispoli24
[541] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2kc
[543] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2kc
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[547] https://dev.to/richharris
[548] https://dev.to/richharris
[550] https://dev.to/richharris
[552] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2p5
[554] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2p5
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[558] https://dev.to/mrispoli24
[559] https://dev.to/mrispoli24
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[563] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p35p
[565] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p35p
[568] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia/comments/new/p35p
[569] https://dev.to/vintharas
[570] https://dev.to/vintharas
[572] https://dev.to/vintharas
[574] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2hp
[576] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#comment-p2hp
[579] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia/comments/new/p2hp
[580] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia/comments
[581] https://dev.to/code-of-conduct
[582] https://dev.to/report-abuse
[586] https://dev.to/richharris/in-defense-of-the-modern-web-2nia#
[590] https://dev.to/report-abuse
[591] https://dev.to/tthroo/build-your-saas-landing-page-in-15-minutes-using-mantine-111a
[592] https://dev.to/tlaloces/authentication-example-with-fastapi-and-jwt-is-it-as-easy-and-straightforward-as-they-claim-16m1
[593] https://dev.to/myogeshchavan97/i-launched-the-most-awaited-complete-react-course-1efe
[594] https://dev.to/ziontutorial/build-a-dynamic-currency-converter-beginner-react-project-5cb8
[595] https://dev.to/richharris
[597] https://dev.to/richharris
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[599] https://dev.to/richharris/a-new-technique-for-making-responsive-javascript-free-charts-gmp
[608] javascript:void(0);
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[612] https://dev.to/
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[615] https://dev.to/tags
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[617] https://shop.forem.com/
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[623] https://dev.to/code-of-conduct
[624] https://dev.to/privacy
[625] https://dev.to/terms
[626] https://www.forem.com/
[627] https://dev.to/t/opensource
[628] https://dev.to/
[629] https://dev.to/t/rails
[630] https://dev.to/enter
[631] https://dev.to/enter?state=new-user
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